Interview with Gerry Bergstein – Portray Perceptions

Gerry Bergstein is a well known Boston painter and instructor who has vastly influenced many artists for the reason that Nineteen Eighties. I lately was viewing his work on-line and have become re-enchanted by his astounding expertise and wide selection of artwork historic references, kinds, processes, and subject material. His morphing and juxtapositioning of visible and cultural opposites has made for a extremely ingenious and private artwork not like some other. I significantly love his resistance to doctrine and his contrarian takes on the chances for artwork. I made a decision to ask him for an interview and was extremely delighted and grateful when he agreed to speak with me on a Zoom name.

The late Francine Koslow Miller wrote in a 2002 Art Forum review of a Gerry Bergstein exhibition on the Howard Yezerski Gallery.

“Bergstein pursues darker considerations in his vaguely architectural black-and-white work of mounds. An amalgam of decaying mountain, medieval constructing, and phallus, the mound at all times seems to be imploding or exploding in these works, which resemble pencil drawings on broken paper (right here the artist etched strains right into a ready floor of black paint overlaid with white). For Mount, 2002, Bergstein moved his stylus forwards and backwards throughout the extremely detailed central kind in strokes imitating the rhythmic gestures of a cellist. Within the monumental Self-Portrait as Tower of Babel, 2002, the mound is beneath siege, pierced with luscious black holes; it begins to topple earlier than a romantic cloudy sky. References to Leonardo’s Deluge drawings, Brueghel’s Tower of Babel, and Piranesi’s ruins abound on this anthropomorphic citadel, whose stony pores and skin seems to be ripping aside. (It’s exhausting not to think about the World Commerce Middle as nicely.) Hidden among the many gaps within the tower are self-portraits and different small photographs: insect caricatures, a paint tube, a Guston “eye,” a thumb, a rocket ship.

In these works Bergstein equates nature and tradition with private ambition and beliefs. The mounds could posit civilization as a fantastic pile of rubbish, however in addition they counsel Bergstein as existentialist antihero on the foot of his personal mountain of ambition (his purpose being to attain world relevance whereas staying true to himself). As Albert Camus ends his Fable of Sisyphus: “This universe henceforth with no grasp appears to him neither sterile nor futile. Every atom of that stone, every mineral flake of that night-filled mountain in itself varieties a world. The wrestle itself towards the heights is sufficient to fill a person’s coronary heart. One should think about Sisyphus glad.” Bergstein likewise transforms the torment of his wrestle into victory.”

—Francine Koslow Miller

Nicholas Capasso wrote in his essay Expressionism: Boston’s Claim to Fame
(Initially printed in Painting in Boston: 1950-2000)
 

“…Bergstein distilled all these sources”(Max Ernst, Rene Magritte, de Kooning, Gorky, and Guston) “…into a private strategy by which Surrealist methods of free affiliation and irrational juxtaposition had been dropped at bear on expressively distorted photographs created with a tremendous facility of craft. This artist might draw and paint like an expressionist, an Summary Expressionist, a veristic Surrealist, and a trompe-l’oeil grasp—and convincingly mix these kinds on a single canvas. In the course of the eighties, this stylistic spectrum was matched by an equally various vary of images drawn from artwork historical past, self-portraiture, nature, fashionable tradition (particularly tv), and the suburban cultural panorama—once more, all on the identical floor. “
“…I continued to discover the spatial tensions obtained by juxtaposing thick and skinny paint. I had at all times been concerned about juxtaposition of photographs (Magritte). I used to be discovering that juxtapositioning of various surfaces could possibly be simply as unusual and surreal.”

The purpose of Bergstein’s approach and strategy to imagery is basically humanistic and expressionistic. He seeks to precise ineffable psychological states conditioned by his personal expertise of the world—an admittedly chaotic and complicated world—as a mannequin for emotionally apprehending bigger points in up to date society, psychology, epistemology, and ontology. These weighty themes, although, are at all times tempered by humor. Because the artist explains it, “My purpose is to do for portray what Groucho Marx and Alfred Hitchcock did for films and tv. My work is a illustration of the paradoxes, ironies, and absurdities of our media-bombarded tradition, translated by way of the language of paint.” Elsewhere he wrote, “I nonetheless marvel how the unexplainable creation of the universe, the light-speed motion of all these subatomic particles, and billions of years of evolution might have led to squeezing the Charmin, tax returns, life insurance coverage, the artwork world, and different unusual outcomes. If, as Einstein mentioned, ‘God doesn’t play cube with the universe,’ possibly he was enjoying bingo.”

From Gerry Bergstein’s website:

Bergstein’s work contrasts the superior and the trivial, the excessive and the low, the manic and the melancholic utilizing sources from Brueghel to “The Simpsons.” He’s the recipient of an Artadia grant (2007), a profession achievement award from the St. Botolph Membership (2007), and a four-week residency on the Liguria Research Middle in Genoa, Italy (2006). His solo reveals embody Gallery NAGA and the Danforth Museum; Howard Yezerski Gallery, Boston (’04, ’02, ’99, ’97); Stephan Stux Gallery, NY (’99); Galerie Bonnier, Geneva, Switzerland; Zolla Lieberman Gallery, Chicago, IL; and the DeCordova Museum, Lincoln, MA. He’s represented within the collections of The Museum of Fantastic Arts, Boston; MIT; DeCordova Museum; Davis Museum at Wellesley Faculty; IBM; and plenty of others. He has been reviewed extensively within the native press in addition to Tema Celeste, ARTnews, Artwork in America, and Artforum. He has been on the college on the College of the Museum of Fantastic Arts, Boston for over 20 years.

Larry Groff:
What had been your early years rising up like? What was your loved ones like? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up within the Bronx and Queens in New York, the place I stayed until I went away to varsity and left New York. We lived in Bayside Queens, which was nothing like Manhattan. I’d be very stunned if anybody else on my block ever went to the MoMA, as an example. Nonetheless, my father cherished to attract and paint; my mom cherished music and literature.  I’ll not have change into an artist if not for his or her assist. Like when my mom informed me to go to see that Max Ernst present. If my mom had been alive immediately, she would have change into a Music or an English professor, however she didn’t get to go to varsity, sadly. My father was an accountant. When he was youthful, he did a whole lot of great real looking drawings of his household; a lot of them are hanging in my dwelling.  He may need made it as an artist,  however his household discouraged it, and he wanted a job to assist the household. He continued to attract and play the piano like Mozart, and  Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata was considered one of my favorites. So I grew up round classical music and older artwork. 

My dad and mom didn’t get up to date artwork. One time, once I was a lot older, I went with my mother to the Guggenheim, which had simply reopened with a Dan Flavin present after having been closed for a time, and the very first thing she mentioned, “Nicely, I assume they don’t have the artwork right here but – they’ve simply put the lights. (laughs)  And so, a part of my challenge with excessive and low artwork is that I’ve that skepticism of my mother, however then again, I additionally like a whole lot of that stuff. Ultimately, I got here to love Dan Flavin. So I’ve combined emotions about excessive and low, and I like combining them. So I’m a contrarian I at all times see either side of all the pieces, which is each enjoyable and wholesome. 

LG:
 I learn that your mom inspired you to see a Max Ernst retrospective on the MoMA within the early 60s. I used to be curious so I regarded on-line to see if there was any details about that present and located the catalog for the present on the MoMA web site – I discovered a quote that appeared prefer it might have additionally been describing your work. 

“From Ernst’s frottagee, decalcomanlas and flows of pigment emerge a procession of visions typically obsessive and infrequently prophetic: new landscapes inhabited by new phantoms and animals; new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most important desires. The world of Ernst may be turbulent, eruptive and violent. It will possibly additionally provide with irrational lucidity and calm, an evidence of the magic of objects, the black humor of human foibles and the apparition of unseen presences. Just like the wanting glass, the Imagined world of Ernst is a reverse picture. Additionally it is a universe.”

Are you able to say one thing about your curiosity in Ernst and some other influences which might be most necessary, particularly the surrealists?

Gerry Bergstein:
I used to do these little summary, very detailed ink drawings. They had been principally summary, however my mother will need to have acknowledged one thing about their complexity, so she despatched me to the Max Ernst present, which blew me away. I agree with the assertion you gave.

“new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most important desires, the world of Ernst may be turbulent, eruptive and violent“, is one thing I’m very concerned about in addition to “The magic of objects”.  Magritte put it otherwise. Magritte did a portray of a marriage ring floating on high of a piano. He had this concept of secret and magical affinities between objects, you couldn’t put these affinities into phrases, however I like that concept. I assume that’s a complete Surrealist thought. And the final line that Max Ernst’s work as a universe additionally rings true to me. Though my work is a universe–it’s the universe inside my mind and my studio. Possibly the universe is within the mind of the beholder.

I acknowledge stuff from engaged on an image. I’m not excellent at observing actuality in nature. I’m type of unhealthy at it, possibly, as a result of I’ve by no means executed it that a lot. Nonetheless, what I’m good at is exploring my mind visually in response to the marks I make, I’ve this sgraffito course of, by which the paint stays moist for a month, and I can draw into and out of it. I mix various things. I’ll depart the studio after which come again the following day, and it’s telling me one thing, to boost this or to deemphasize that. I’m fairly good at that. It’s simply who I’m, which entails free affiliation and rorschaching. Gregory Gillespie talked about rorschaching so much and is just like what I do – however totally different.

Larry:
I’m questioning if the painter Ivan Albright has some affinities with you? It’s not surrealism or rorshaching, however the depth and drive of his imaginative and prescient maybe are associated to you and Gillespie’s work.

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely, I feel the ironic factor is about these polarity issues I went to Chicago and noticed Albright’s portray, That Which I Should Have Done I Did Not Do (The Door), a few years in the past. I noticed an image of it in a e-book once I was a teen, and it completely blew me away, however once you rise up near the precise portray and take a look at one sq. inch of that door, it seems to be like a microscopic Jackson Pollock. So many little fascinating marks. I like artwork that refers, deliberately or not, to the entire of Artwork in an unique means.

Gerry Bergstein:
Yet another factor about surrealism, have you learnt the portray Hide and Seek by Pavel Tchelitchew?

LG: Certain.

Gerry Bergstein:
I cherished it as a teen, after which in 2017, I retired from educating, however in 2019 I used to be persuaded to show a grad seminar, however I used to be shy and nervous about my listening to and was afraid I wasn’t updated sufficient. So to assuage myself, I visited MOMA simply two days earlier than that class began in 2019. And I walked as much as the third ground and there was Cover and Search hanging once more after it had been in storage for like 30 years. The wall textual content mentioned that in 1961, which was the 12 months I first noticed it, was voted by the general public to be the most well-liked portray in our assortment. Nicely, I assumed that was such an affirmation. I don’t adore it as a lot as I used to, however I assumed, ‘what goes round, comes round’.  It suffered from acclaim, rejection, and re-acclaim. I feel that’s so nice.

Prefer it or not, the politics of artwork aesthetics within the artwork world come into my work, in a really ambivalent means.

LG: 
You studied on the Artwork College students League?

Gerry Bergstein: I studied on the artwork college students league for a 12 months with Harry Sternberg. Who was an incredible instructor. He taught me what freedom was. Harry Sternberg was mates with Jack Levine. And his work, at occasions, was a bit of bit like Jack Levine. Edwin Dickinson was proper subsequent door. And Lennart Anderson was there on the time. I moved to Boston by chance. I had no clue concerning the Boston expressionist college, however I assumed it was ironic that I moved to Boston and have become considerably concerned with that custom and Boston quite than New York.

LG:
Why did you progress to Boston?

Gerry Bergstein:
I needed to go to a spot that was affiliated with the faculty. In any other case, I’d have been drafted.

LG:
What was your expertise going to the museum college (College of the Museum of Fantastic Arts at Tufts College) again then?  You studied with Henry Schwartz, Barney Rubenstein and Jan Cox, a Belgian Surrealist painter. Was Barney the principle instructor that can assist you be taught realist and trompe l’oeil portray?

Gerry Bergstein:
Henry Schwartz taught me extra; he had these weird setups that had been surreal, and so they jogged my memory a bit of little bit of a few of Bruce Connors’s early work. Surreal setups with musical scores and portraits and various things pasted it collectively, and so they had been pleasant and hilarious. I realized so much from that venture and I assume that’s what received me concerned about trompe l’oeil. Barney was extra of a good friend. I adored Barney and realized so much from him, however it wasn’t a teacher-student factor; it was extra lengthy conversations. Plus, I cherished his work. Jan Cox woke up sure issues in my creativeness. I took a design class with him, and he was candy and accepting of bizarre concepts.

I skilled the museum college in numerous methods. I used to be a  scholar there within the final two years of the extremely tutorial curriculum to the coed revolution in 1970, which modified that utterly. Quickly after that, Clement Greenberg started to carry sway in Boston with new school at college and Kenworth Moffett, a  Greenburg acolyte, being employed because the M.F.A.s first up to date curator. Clement Greenberg was seen by some as being on the apex of modernism in Boston; though his affect was already in decline in New York. I appreciated modernists like Morris Louis and Jules Olitski however I assumed that the concept that you couldn’t present realism or surrealism as a consequence of some second-rate philosophy was simply infuriating.
Though the museum college was actually tutorial for the primary three years I went there, I managed to search out my means by way of that, and I’m glad I had some publicity to, you already know, actual tutorial drawing and that type of factor. Though I wasn’t that nice at it,

LG:
Do you suppose painters want that type of tutorial coaching?

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an excellent query. The museum college modified radically in 1969. The coed strike through the anti-war motion. The pinnacle of the college was fired, and a brand new head of the college changed him, and insurance policies had been modified so college students might make their very own curriculum; you didn’t must take any course you didn’t wish to. For the primary few years, the outcomes had been disastrous. However ultimately, it kind of labored itself out. Do all artists want that tutorial construction? I’m undecided, I feel I wanted it, however I don’t know. What do you suppose?

LG:
Once I was at school, I sought out conventional realist coaching. A few of the summary painters whom I like probably the most additionally went by way of that tutorial rigor. However then there are different summary painters who had been self-taught or didn’t get a lot tutorial coaching, who I additionally like. So I don’t suppose there’s any proper solution to be taught artwork, though I do suppose it’s essential to be taught artwork historical past nicely. I don’t imagine in only one proper reply and check out to withstand artwork doctrine.

Gerry Bergstein:
There’s nobody reply; I completely agree. Yeah. I imply, I feel de Kooning was an incredible draftsman and I am keen on his early work; I don’t suppose Pollock was such an incredible draftsman.

LG:
Nonetheless, Pollock did examine with Thomas Hart Benton, who helped give him an understanding of construction.

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s precisely proper. I feel his compositions have one thing a bit of bit in frequent with Benton’s compositions.
Pollock knew what he was; he knew the terrain. Children going to artwork college immediately get little or no of that, though possibly that’s a gross generalization, I don’t know. I feel it may well nonetheless be attainable to get it if you’d like it sufficient.  Gregory Gillespie as soon as mentioned to me that regardless of going to the San Francisco Artwork Institute, he thought of himself self-taught as a result of it was strict summary expressionism when he was there and didn’t provide a lot in the way in which of studying find out how to be a realist painter.

LG:
Possibly that’s not at all times such a nasty factor typically. Gillespie could have taught himself the way in which he wished to color realistically, however his time at San Francisco Artwork Institute ultimately helped him change into such a tremendous painter; he will need to have gotten one thing out of it, simply not realist portray chops. Gregory Gillespie is amongst my favourite painters.

Gerry Bergstein:
I keep in mind a narrative about Chuck Shut, whom I feel went to Yale. He was a reasonably good summary painter again then. I heard him communicate as soon as at Harvard, and he mentioned, The issue with summary portray was that he would go away his studio considering, ‘that is the most effective factor that’s ever been executed on the earth’. Then he would come again the following day, and it regarded like full crap; he wished to do one thing that he could possibly be verifiable that he was doing it proper. He additionally wished to get as far-off from de Kooning as attainable. So if de Kooning used a whole lot of colour, he used black and white. If de Kooning was completely into the act of portray, he was watching TV whereas he was portray. His transfer to be self-consciously away from that’s fascinating to me as nicely. In a while, he joked that he had made extra de Kooning’s than de Kooning himself with all his little “coloured pixels” in grids that you simply see in his later work.
So we’re on this kind of lineage. Most likely if I hadn’t taught, I don’t suppose I’d be fascinated about the stuff a lot in any respect, however since I taught, it’s an important factor to me.

LG:
It’s most likely not useful to at all times be reacting in opposition to one thing or rebelling. Sooner or later, it’s important to determine what you wish to be.

Gerry Bergstein:
The act of insurrection in itself doesn’t assure good artwork. There needs to be some kind of component of affection and discovery within the work, not simply insurrection.  I would like each love and rage.

LG:
How did your profession as a painter evolve after ending college? What was life like for you again then? Had been you in a position to paint full-time? Did you begin educating instantly?

Gerry Bergstein:
once I first received out of college. I received a touring fellowship and spent 4 months in Europe, which was life-changing.  Once I received again, for round 5 or 6 years, I labored full-time as an image framer. I didn’t get a lot time to color then. I needed to make a dwelling, however I made it some extent by no means to surrender. 

In 1973 I received a grant to go to an artist in residency in Roswell, New Mexico, for six months. They gave you a stipend, home, and studio. I went there and received to know some severe artists. We grew to become pleasant. I received to know their work habits and know what it was prefer to have time to work, which was terrific. 

Once I returned in about 1977, I received a job educating on the evening college within the Museum College. However it paid 5 {dollars} an hour, my dad and mom would ship me cash now and again, however I used to be dwelling hand-to-mouth. I made mates with some artists; Miroslav Antic was one. He was a instructor on the Museum College. He was a lot pushier than me and had a good friend who opened a gallery. He introduced this good friend to my studio, who then provided me a present. I additionally received a job educating at Harmony Academy, which was a bit of higher than being an image framer because it was part-time however a bit of bit more cash. I used to be struggling alongside. After which, I had a present at Lopoukhine/Nayduch Gallery in 1979; nothing bought, however there was a whole lot of curiosity from artists, and it was very encouraging.

Grants, so I used to be starting to do okay. I’m a really shy individual. For a time, I’d escape in a sweat simply strolling right into a gallery, not to mention asking them to take a look at my work.

I went to New York and fell in love with artists like Susan Rothenberg, Robert Colescott, The unhealthy portray present on the new Museum, and Philip Guston, Oh my God. I assumed this was the last word negation of the Greenbergian tyranny.

LG:
Has Philip Guston’s work influenced you indirectly? Are you able to discuss this a bit of?

Gerry Bergstein:
Once I first noticed Philip Guston in 1975 at BU when he first began doing the Klan heads and I loathed it, however then in 1979, I used to be doing this self-portrait of me coated with a blanket in mattress, and the form of the blanket was so much like a type of Klan hoods. There was a cigarette with actually thick smoke popping out of it; then I remembered that present, and prefer it was love. I nonetheless love Guston. I grew to become very enthusiastic about this new route in portray. My good friend Miroslav was type of a mentor then. Henry Schwartz, whom I adored, rejected that work utterly, however I didn’t thoughts as a result of I knew Henry cherished me. 

I received right into a present in 1981, Boston Now, on the Institute of Modern Artwork, the place yearly they might placed on a present with about eight Boston artists; it was actually thrilling, after which I received into one other Boston Now present the following 12 months after which received picked up by Stux Gallery. After that, I began promoting each single factor I made. From about 1981 to about 1995. I bought all the pieces. On account of this, I used to be in a position to train full-time on the Museum college as a result of I used to be displaying. Instructing at first was only a day job, however then I realized so much from it, and it was actually enjoyable.

LG:
Do you see your self as a part of a continuum of the custom of Boston Expressionist portray, reminiscent of Hyman Bloom,  Jack Levine, David Aronson, Karl Zerbe, Henry Schwartz, and others after them? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve considerably combined emotions concerning the Boston expressionists. I like Hyman Bloom. ,  folks like Arthur Polonsky and David Aaronson, I assumed they had been a bit of too slick, too crowd-pleasing, nearly too romantic, however I assume they’ve all had an enormous affect on me. Unusually sufficient, the 12 months I give up educating, nobody had checked out these guys for many years, I made a decision to do a slide present of all of them for my class. The scholars got here as much as me and mentioned that is the most effective artwork we’ve seen in years; we adore it! 

 LG:
 Would you name your self a Neo-Expressionist, or do you reject being labeled as a part of any explicit college?

Gerry Bergstein:
Would I name myself a neo-expressionist? I did once I was within the 80s. Together with Francesco Clemente, Jorg Immendorf, David Salle, and Julian Schnabel. I used to be concerned about a few of their work; I positioned myself in that spectrum. However there was a whole lot of unhealthy Neo-Expressionism too.  Is Philip Gustin a Neo-Expressionist? I don’t know

LG:
I feel his late work might slot in with that on some stage. I anticipated that you simply would possibly react in opposition to being labeled as a Neo-Expressionist; I assumed possibly you’d resent being labeled, That you simply’re in a college of 1.

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m extra into my ancestral lineage. Possibly starting with Bruegel and Hieronymus Bosch, occurring to Piranesi, Velasquez, and Goya, after which up by way of Ensor, Rousseau, the Surrealists, the German expressionists, and the Summary Expressionists like de Kooning. Arshile Gorky, Gorky was an enormous affect, after which the Neo-expressionists are additionally my forebearers.&nbsp

However what you wish to do is so as to add your personal take to no matter you’re doing–you wish to make it your personal. You’re advancing the custom a bit of step at a time. it’s a really broad custom. I imply contains near-total abstraction and likewise artists like Bouguereau and Fragonard. Late in life, I all of a sudden fell in love with Fragonard, who is sort of my exact opposite. His sentimentality is so blatant that I simply can’t assist however adore it. Nonetheless, Boucher, I don’t like as a lot.

LG:
I don’t know in case you’ve seen the brand new Synthetic Intelligence picture software program the place you give textual content prompts to mix imagery gleaned from tens of millions of photographs on the net. I noticed lately the place somebody mixed a Bouguereau nude and a few type of blue monster.

This kind of AI surrealism is, as a rule, fairly dreadful, however I nonetheless suppose it could possibly be helpful for producing concepts visually. Form of like drawing thumbnail sketches. I attempted this some time in the past, writing within the immediate, Picasso portray of the Tower of Babel, to see what would possibly come up. It was fascinating what it selected to do.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s fascinating and terrifying on the identical time.  Is the painter going to be just like the chess grasp, who can not beat the pc anymore? I don’t know. However what terrifies me one 12 months, I can fall in love with the following.

LG:
 I assume the purpose I’m fascinated about is that a lot of our lineage is open for reinterpretation and making it new. Like possibly making hybrids like medieval-neo-expressionism or cubist-photorealism. Know-how, in addition to our up to date mindset, permits the previous to proceed in new, thrilling methods. Portray is way from being lifeless. 

Gerry Bergstein:  
Portray has been declared lifeless for nicely over 100 years. (laughs)
Previous and future generations look at the identical points by way of the lens of their tradition and thru their know-how. Some issues could evolve technically and culturally, however the huge points like life and demise, love and intercourse, energy and rage all keep the identical.

LG:
That’s an excellent level. 

You’ve talked prior to now about your fascination with juxtaposing contrasting imagery and methods of making use of the paint. You usually paint trompe l’oeil parts, particularly flat issues like tape, over or alongside expressionistic parts. You may also incorporate flat, cartoon, or child-like drawings, collage, and sculptural items subsequent to realistically painted fruits. You appear to experience combining the excessive and low-brow, sacred and profane, and the banal with the extraordinary. You as soon as acknowledged that your “work distinction the superior and the trivial, the historic and the private, the manic and the melancholic.” Are you able to say extra about why this has engaged you for therefore lengthy?

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up with studying comedian books, Mad Journal, Twilight Zone, and science fiction magazines, and considered one of my favourite reveals that I noticed extra lately as a present of Pulp Fiction covers on the Brooklyn Museum. I feel they’re so nice.

My dad and mom had been very cultured, however they had been very shy and remoted nearly, so I had a whole lot of conflicting influences.  I prefer to joke that I used to be the rebellious son of accountants and dentists. I’ve all that obsessiveness in me, however I usually explode. It’s constructed into my psychology; even within the 60s, through the top of the coed strike, in fact, I used to be completely in favor of peace and civil rights, however there was additionally what I referred to as psychedelic fascism. It was just like the left telling you what to do as like the appropriate was telling you what to do–‘meet the brand new boss, identical because the outdated boss’–or one thing like that, proper? 
I’ve at all times been a skeptic, and I’m undecided why, however I feel it’s an fascinating place to be. I’ve two quotes on my web site, one from John Lennon and the opposite from Groucho Marx. Lennon says all you want is love and Marx says no matter it’s, I’m in opposition to it! (laughs)

LG:
That’s so humorous. Nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally suppose I can be taught stuff like what Ivan Albright has in frequent with Jackson Pollock, possibly not the deepest connection, however it’s there. What does Chuck Shut have in frequent with the de Kooning, and what makes them totally different? I feel the factor about Chuck Shut was that he was temperamentally unsuited to be an summary painter as a result of he was due to the emotional curler coaster of summary expressionist portray– I do that as nicely; if I make one good mark, I all of a sudden suppose that is the best factor that’s ever occurred in artwork.  The emotional; ups and downs had been an excessive amount of for him. He additionally mentioned that he thought abstraction was not an area for main breakthroughs at the moment.

I even have this concept referred to as probability conferences. I did some collages within the early 2000s; a few of them had been installations hanging in my studio, with all the pieces hooked up to string and clothesline. And there have been all these photograph reproductions of work speaking to one another. Like possibly The Flintstones and late Leonardo speaking to one another. And I discover that conglomeration satisfying. And, you already know, folks criticize it as a result of it was like an excessive amount of of an artwork historic joke, and maybe it was, however possibly it wasn’t utterly an artwork historic joke as a result of for me, it was one thing actual. 

LG:
William T Wiley stated in an interview speaking about considered one of his reveals, 

“It’s like Sir Francis Bacon’s assertion, “There’s no factor of fantastic magnificence that doesn’t have inside itself some proportion of strangeness.” So, you already know, excessive and low meet at that time the place authenticate expression emerges, I feel, and a few impressed expression emerges, whether or not it’s with a razor blade or an outdated sock, it’s no matter that specific factor. So you possibly can have one thing there that, the newest post-modern time period is, “Appears like artwork, so it should be artwork.”

How do you determine the stability between the disparate parts and the proportion of strangeness?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like that William Wiley assertion very a lot. I feel that type of sums it up for me.

LG:
We talked a bit of about Greenbergian Modernism artwork dogma and such, together with the inflexible doctrine of each the appropriate and left and different related closed ideologies which have influenced your artwork and life. Is there something extra to say about this?

Gerry Bergstein:
The issue with ideologies is that they should be put into follow by folks. All of them have a level of fact, however I feel that non-public ambition is just like the “uncertainty” precept” of the artwork world and most different human worlds. It’s by no means talked about in ideologies however is a hidden a part of their creation. I really feel strongly about that, possibly as a result of I used to be so shy for therefore lengthy and other people round me had been expressing themselves with nice authority–I used to be frightened of them. However that’s not true anymore. Now I received’t shut up. (laughs)

LG:
Did underground cartoonists like Robert Crumb or earlier cartoonists like George Herriman ever have a lot affect in your work?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like R. Crumb. I like that documentary about him. I’m uncomfortable when he beheads girls in his work. Nonetheless, I feel he’s a superb draftsman and a kinky man in an fascinating means. George Herriman, I like simply because Philip Guston appreciated him, however I don’t know him very nicely. I by no means learn psychedelic comics. As a substitute, I learn stuff like Archie and Superman once I was very younger. The Hardy Boys, the American dream, Father Is aware of Greatest, the American Dream–you’re a superb boy. You solved the crime–you’re a superb boy. That was a complete lie, and that compels me, figuring out how we delude ourselves.

LG:
Are you able to say one thing about your portray course of? I’m curious how a lot you consciously plan out your work or do they tackle a lifetime of their very own with out a lot planning beforehand?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve had many various processes, however I can provide you a couple of of them.

Once I was nonetheless at school, I used to be in love with Arshile Gorky, and I cherished the kind of eroticism and delicacy of his line and form. I cherished his rigorous compositions, however I couldn’t get it in my very own work. And sooner or later, I had this colour canvas, and in a match of pique, I simply painted the entire thing black and scraped into it with the again of my paintbrush. I assumed, Oh, there’s Gorky’s line. So I fell in love with it. I assumed it was the most effective portray of the twentieth century, and I confirmed it to BarneyRubenstein, and he mentioned, nicely, it’s very good, however it seems to be like Gorky. So I realized that it’s important to add one thing. The approach that I’ve most likely used probably the most, and what I’m engaged on proper now, are these black and white items the place I begin out utilizing black gesso and two or three layers of ivory black with a bit of wax medium. So there’s a bit of little bit of tooth to it; I blot it and let it dry. I then apply zinc white combined with a bit of clove oil which retains it moist for a month. I then use these totally different instruments that I scrape into the image. I often have a construction in thoughts. 

Till about three months in the past, for a few 12 months, I used to be doing these orb-like shapes; typically, they jogged my memory nearly like a flying saucer, or Earth, or possibly my mind.  I’d draw within the construction after which randomly, with a whole lot of agitation, transfer my arm round inside the construction. I’d attempt perspectival and different methods of constructing issues look spherical. Steadily biomorphic shapes or ruined landscapes elements of it might emerge, and each day I come into the studio and do it some extra, after which when that every one dried, I’d take these little tiny brushes and improve a few of the shapes that I noticed. They grew to become fairly totally different. 

And in my newer ones, I’ve collaged images of various elements of various work, and I print them in barely totally different colours from black and white. So the latest ones have a bit of little bit of colour in them once more. In order that’ sgraffito approach affords me the chance to rorschach and free-associate and make errors. 

I attempted one other factor a couple of years earlier for my present “Theory and Practice” at the Naga Gallery  I grew to become seduced by digital images, for higher or worse. It took me about 10 years to do something I kind of appreciated. My studio ground is a multitude, it’s a portray in itself, and each time I reduce out a bit of determine or historic picture that I’d wish to check out in a portray. it falls on the ground together with the drips on the ground, after which I made a decision to pour white home paint on high of all this and canopy up a few of it, however not all of it. I then would stroll round it till I’d discover a composition I appreciated. I then had a good friend are available in with a 200-megapixel Hasselblad, and he took an image of it for me. I photographed it and printed it out massive, very massive on canvas, like 5 by six toes. 

LG:
Did you print that your self or did you might have another person?

Gerry Bergstein:
Fortunately I had entry to the Museum College’s printers and their Tech Assistants. 

LG:
Wow, that’s nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
So I’d do this, after which I’d take detailed photographs of little elements of the ground. So the massive shot was the ground assembly the wall.  There was graffiti on the wall, and there was stuff on the ground. However then I’d take these drips of white home paint that may crack after some time. They might additionally get distressed after I walked on them after they had been dry. They might start to appear like fossilized de Kooning pours. So we take photos of them after which reduce them out and collage them into the portray. One in every of my favorites kind of regarded like a fossilized de Kooning. There too, I’d paint into them and see issues within the summary shapes that appear like photographs, however then in the event that they grew to become an excessive amount of like images-that, they received corny, I would must scale it again. It was a type of a juggling act.

I additionally had a nonetheless life interval once I met Gail, who’s the exact opposite of me. I used to be deeply in love together with her, and he or she grew to become my muse and led me to make these lovely nonetheless lives of flowers and fruit for 3 or 4 years (within the 90s. – I wished to be very lovely but in addition cope with vanitas, the evanescence of all magnificence in artwork and life.

LG:
These fruit and flower had been nearly little sculptures constructed from thick paint, proper? 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, a few of them used toy mannequin railroad employees who had been setting up fruit out of very thick paint. I like the concept of one thing being pure paint and picture concurrently. Like the way you would possibly see in Thiebaud’s thickly painted image of  Ketchup, Mustard, and Mayonaise.

Generally what occurs is that I’m doing one thing for 3 to 5 years and I start to get bored. First, it’s a studying curve, after which after I realized find out how to do it and do some actually good work, It begins to be a bit of too simple, and I get bored. And so I feel the explanation I finished doing this sgraffito for a few years was that I received sick of it. Nonetheless, now, I’m into it once more.

In a nonetheless earlier section, I’d paint fruit on a canvas, after which I’d drip white paint on high of it, then I’d paint into the white paint, and progressively, there have been so many drips on high of it that they grew to become completely summary. Ultimately, I misplaced my means, and I went into one thing else. 

I developed a few methods for a sequence of determine self-portraits the place the pinnacle seems to be like a drawing, however it’s really a portray. I’d take {a photograph} after which have this white paint on high of black paint after which hint an overview from the {photograph}; I’d then very fastidiously render the pinnacle on the canvas with a pencil. So it regarded like a reasonably good realist depiction. However then, on the our bodies, I’d have picture illusions of little scraps of paper with all my favourite artists listed or photographs from artists like Gorky or Vija Celmins to my father’s head, to an anatomical chart half. And so my physique grew to become artwork historical past or one thing private as an artist factor. Randall Diehl, a good friend of Gregory Gillespie’s did this nice self-portrait with tattoos of various artists throughout his physique. I like artwork about artwork.

LG:
That’s so fascinating. I observed that in a couple of of your work the place you embody some sort of self-portrait, You’re carrying this paint-dripped shirt and pants that look a bit of like a mix of a de Kooning and a Hubble photograph of the celebs, making you appear like a cosmic home painter. Is that one thing you made?

Gerry Bergstein:
I made that myself; it’s a t-shirt with black Denims with acrylic poured on high of it. I wore that outfit of the day opening of that present.

LG:
That’s so humorous.

Gerry Bergstein:
Truly, I simply wore the shirt I didn’t put on the pants; that may have been an excessive amount of.

LG:
I’m undecided if  Cosmos is the appropriate phrase, however there gave the impression to be a motif of the cosmo operating by way of quite a few your works. I’ve learn that electron microscope imagery of the construction of neural networks within the mind look remarkably just like astronomical pictures that present the bigger patterns of tens of millions of galaxies. Your work typically appeared to talk to this fascinating comparability on some stage.

Gerry Bergstein:
The macro and the micro Sure. Completely. Subatomic and deep house. Sure.

LG:
An awesome thought for a t-shirt!

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m within the cosmos as a result of it’s so superior, mysterious, and religious. I’m kind of an agnostic, however I imagine there’s one thing that I’ll by no means perceive or actually have a clue about; it’s so splendidly mysterious. And then you definitely take a look at the Earth, and now we have Donald Trump. Actually not great and mysterious, he’s the exact opposite of that, from the elegant to the ridiculous. I’m concerned about that challenge too.

LG:
Ugh, please don’t get me began about Trump! I like these new pictures coming from the brand new James Webb House Telescope. Simply so astounding that we now get this new appreciation of the place we’re within the bigger scheme of issues and the way small and insignificant we’re however on the identical time so uncommon and treasured.

Gerry Bergstein:
I do know, they’re going to have the ability to possibly get clues of the place there is perhaps life. It’s completely wonderful.

LG:
I learn a quote from John Walker saying one thing alongside the strains of  ‘…his varieties must have the amount in order that they may suggest different issues, that his work must be imbued with feeling. In any other case, it’s simply design or ornament.’ Would you agree with this and care to remark additional? Have you learnt him?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t know him however I like his work. It’s a positive line. As somebody who loves Bouguereau and Fragonard – I won’t be the most effective one to reply about sentimentality.(laughs)` I feel there’s a distinction between emotion and sentimentality. There may be a whole lot of feeling in Max Beckmann; There’s a whole lot of feeling in de Kooning. There’s a whole lot of feeling in Vija Celmins. Unusually sufficient. It’s inclusive of feeling, mind, and course of in various proportions or kind of necessary to totally different artists. At occasions an artist like Hyman Bloom will get a bit of sentimental however it’s a elegant sentimentality. So you already know, I feel it’s borderline, however artwork could be nothing with out feeling, and artwork could be nothing with out any individual’s thoughts and creativeness. Artwork may additionally be nothing with out particular person methods of individuals develop. So I feel they’re all necessary.

LG:
I perceive you might be married to the painter Gail Boyajian who paints unimaginable panoramic landscapes with birds. I observed that considered one of her work ( Vanitas, 2015 ) contains the Tower of Babel. And a few of your fruit and flower work present some affinities together with her work.  Regardless of your topics and kinds being so totally different, there appear to be a couple of factors the place they intersect. I’m curious to listen to something you would possibly say about having a painter as a accomplice.

Gerry Bergstein:
I made these Fruit and Flower work for her; We had one within the background within the place the place we received married. I first noticed Bruegel’s Tower of Babel portray in 1971 on my first journey to Europe, however I cherished it a lot that I went again later with Gail; there’s a complete room of Bruegel’s work. We each love Bruegel.

LG:
I discover each the story of the Tower of Babel and Bruegel’s portray so compelling – just like the bible saying people want to remain of their lane – don’t evolve with better ambitions like advances in civilization. To not construct our data, drugs, science, and humanity any greater. It reveals how insecure this God should be to fret about people rising above their station.

Gerry Bergstein:
I see it as human ambition taking up from God, and That’s why he destroyed it, and it’s hubris, and it’s the type of like power-seeking or figuring out all the pieces or which we by no means can do as a result of (goddamn) God made us so we couldn’t do it. (laughs)  However I can see your level; I feel it’s the other facet of the identical coin. It’s concerning the folly of ambition and energy. However then again, that’s all now we have, and I like ambition and energy. It’s a double-edged sword.

LG: 
Sorry, I interrupted you, please proceed speaking about your spouse.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s a extremely fascinating relationship. She not often watches tv. She doesn’t know what Mad Journal was. She doesn’t know the New Wave music I used to take heed to. However she’s a complete professional on Henry James and George Eliot. So once we first received collectively, we vowed that I’d learn Portrait of a Girl, and he or she was going to observe LA Legislation. (laughs) So she watched one episode of LA Legislation, and I learn one chapter of Portrait of a Girl, and we’ve been arguing about it ever since. However now we’re beginning to come collectively within the middle. I learn an incredible biography of Henry James lately; I used to be fascinated by it as a result of he was an bold insecure man, identical to the remainder of us. (laughs) So now we have nice discussions, and he or she’s a superb critic of sure issues in my work, like the place one thing is spatially. So we’re encouraging and serving to one another in our work. Since our work is so totally different, we’re not aggressive with one another. She has a distinct kind of ambition than I do. My ambition is altering as I become old, a bit of extra contemplative. I’m not so anxious.

LG:
As you become old, are you engaged on a smaller scale?

Gerry Bergstein:
Truly, it’s getting greater; it’s getting each greater and smaller.

LG:
The dimensions of so a lot of your works is large. I’m curious; some painters I’ve talked to begin to work smaller as a result of they don’t have the space for storing or different causes, however you promote most of your work, in order that’s most likely not a difficulty, proper?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t promote an enormous quantity of labor. I just like the folks on the Naga Gallery–they’re actually sincere and useful. However I feel a few of my newer work is simply too fragile and huge, I don’t know why I like  to maintain doing it. I assume I’m an fool. (laughs) Possibly working bigger is a response to mortality. I’ve had a couple of well being issues; nothing will kill me imminently. However I notice, in a means, I by no means have earlier than, that that is going to finish, and I wish to get my final shot in or one thing. Final 12 months I labored on three tremendous massive work, the biggest of which was 90 by 112 inches. That took over a 12 months, and now I’m returning to considerably smaller work.

LG:
The inhabitants explosion of painters over the previous a number of a long time has made the competitors to indicate and promote work impossibly stiff, particularly in a higher-end market the place somebody would possibly make sufficient to dwell on. Work are sometimes valued much less for creative benefit and extra for saleability or advertising. What opinion are you able to share about this dynamic? 

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an fascinating query as a result of I like to promote work, and I’m at all times fantasizing about promoting work, but when I had been extra concerned about promoting, I’d make very totally different work. So it’s a combined bag. I do work that’s troublesome after which complain if nobody desires it. (laughs)  I do give it some thought, actually, however I don’t let it intervene with decision-making within the precise act of portray. It’s a balancing act.

LG:
It appears to me that for some artists, the extra they attempt to make it sellable, the more serious it will get. The necessary factor is to concentrate on the integrity of the work, which you do. 

Gerry Bergstein: 
It’s actually exhausting. Placing your self out on the earth. It’s essential. I do it reluctantly, however I do it. Nonetheless, I do it much less as I’m getting older. I’m displaying much less and getting out on the earth.  Covid, in fact, was little bit of a damper. (laughs)

LG:
How a lot ought to younger painters care concerning the industrial potential of their paintings? What recommendation would possibly you provide the youthful era of painters developing?

Gerry Bergstein:
They need to be fascinated about making mates with different artists. That’s good for dialogue of the work and likewise good for introductions. I received my begin from a good friend who launched me to a supplier and received a present. I most likely would have by no means executed that by myself. However you may go too far in both route. I agree with you. College students want some kind of dialogue of what occurs proper after college and find out how to survive, find out how to survive with a day job, and have a purpose to work themselves as much as. As shy as I used to be, when my work began getting good, about 1980, and I started to face behind my work, I didn’t have any drawback displaying it to folks, however earlier than that, I used to be at all times a bit of shaky, and possibly for a superb cause. Even now, I don’t usually ship my work out to sellers very a lot in different cities. I used to do this. I confirmed in locations aside from Boston. 

I feel younger artists must know that it’s a tough enterprise. They must be very persistent in order that they could luck out and have a present and promote once they’re very younger, which comes with its personal difficulties. Or they could must work for a number of years. I had I’ve had college students for whom I write letters of advice to get into graduate college yearly for ten years, after which lastly, they get accepted. I feel it takes a very long time to learn to paint. There may be one lady I taught; not solely did she get into grad college, however now she’s getting these educating jobs. She’s an incredible panorama painter, and if she hadn’t labored for eight or 9 years with out a lot recognition, It could have been unhappy as a result of she’s doing terrific work.

For those who get discouraged and wish to give up, that’s your small business. I’ve additionally had painters who received out of grad college and began displaying in galleries a 12 months later and bought their work for some huge cash, after which–identical to that–it ends. They’ll’t determine what else to do. No matter you’re doing, it’s important to be in it for the lengthy haul, be sincere with your self and let the chips fall the place they might. The entire thing concerning the overblown artwork market, work promoting for a whole lot of tens of millions of {dollars}, is obscene. However the different query is that if I might promote a portray for 100 million {dollars}, I wager I’d! (laughs) I nonetheless suppose it’s obscene. Artists need to make a dwelling, possibly even a snug dwelling, however this commodification stuff, with folks, are shopping for artwork for the unsuitable causes, is terrible. The younger artist has to navigate commodification in addition to with the ability to navigate socializing and friendships. They must be assertive and get their work on the market and don’t count on it at all times to work out, to have a thick pores and skin. Making use of for grants and the like, it’s a crapshoot. And you already know, Possibly in case you’re fortunate, you’ll get one in 20 tries, so simply maintain doing it.

 

LG:
Do you might have a present developing in some unspecified time in the future within the close to future?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, in September 2023 on the Naga Gallery.

LG:
You’ll be displaying these new massive work you talked about there?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve some small ones to indicate too. The Gallery Naga is so nice; they encourage you to take extra dangers and never be nervous about what folks suppose; they’re very supportive. I’m glad about that.

LG:
From what I do know, it’s a superb gallery with a splendidly various vary of painters. 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, they do.

LG:
Many galleries are having a tough time on this economic system and all. Are they doing okay?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, the Naga is wholesome as a result of they’re good enterprise folks. Since covid, it has difficult issues for all of the galleries.

LG:
is Arthur Dion nonetheless the director?

Gerry Bergstein:
No, Arthur retired. Meg White changed him. Arthur has change into a really severe Buddhist.

LG:
Is Buddhism one thing that pursuits you as nicely? It’s been necessary for a lot of painters, like Gregory Gillespie

Gerry Bergstein:
Solely peripherally. I’ve tried meditation, however I’m so unhealthy at it. David Sipress had an incredible cartoon, of a person elevating his hand in a meditation class saying,  “I’m fascinated about not considering, is that appropriate?” (laughs)  And that’s what occurs to me once I meditate. I do it now and again, and it’s useful if I’m anxious about one thing. How about you, do you meditate?

LG:
No, nonetheless,  after lunch, I prefer to take heed to classical music in an nearly asleep, dreamlike state for 20 minutes or so. It’s rejuvenating. I don’t suppose it’s meditating, although, however it works for me.
Do you paint whereas listening to music?

Gerry Bergstein:
Classical music, sure! I like chamber music. Once I began this new sequence of work, I listened completely to the chamber music of Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and Mendelssohn, whereas I used to be portray and it was so inspiring. I additionally love rock music.

LG:
Do you ever fear concerning the music influencing the portray an excessive amount of on some stage?
Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, I’ve heard that; possibly that’s true. And I used to at all times till I used to be till about 1990 I listened to music always within the studio. Both classical or new wave, Punk or no matter. After which all of a sudden I began listening to the information…

LG:
Oh no, that’s fairly unhappy today. (laughs)

Gerry Bergstein:
After which now I’m again listening to music. However not fairly as a lot, I’ve to remind myself. However once I’m doing it, I adore it.

LG:
I really feel that I wish to paint as a lot as I can. If I spent all my time portray with no music, then I’d by no means get to take heed to music. Life’s exhausting sufficient; you would possibly as nicely take pleasure in it wherever you may!

Gerry Bergstein:
Precisely. I agree; I like music; I feel it’s the best artwork kind.

LG:
Generally I think about what musician could be most like a sure painter, what musician would I equate them with? Possibly your musical doppelgänger could be Frank Zappa, would that be honest?

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely!, We’re in it Just for the Cash is considered one of my all-time favourite albums.

LG:
A humorous factor – that album I heard was a part of a venture that Zappa referred to as No Commerical Potential – but it was such an enormous success. One other instance of the significance of being true to your inventive self.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally take heed to John Coltrane and Charlie Mingus. Generally I think about the blacks in my portray remind me of somebody enjoying the cello, like a Bach Cello Suite or one thing. So it’s a variety.
However then, I’ll take heed to Little Richard the following day. I wish to have Beethoven’s Grosse Fugue, adopted by Chuck Berry’s Roll Over Beethoven, performed at my funeral.

LG:
That sounds excellent. Let’s hope that received’t be for a lot of, a few years sooner or later.